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The Salon Debates V - Why We Fight

Why We Fight - An introspection on the heart in times of war.

This is part five in a five part series of debates being hosted by the Arvum Philosophical Society. The purpose of these debates are not to provide answers, but to help people find their own answers and ask new questions.

All are welcome who can honor the spirit of civil discource. This debate will be moderated by Duchess Calypso.


March 11, 2018, 8 p.m.

Hosted By

Sparte Calypso


Derovai Anze(RIP) Thesarin Khanne Ven(RIP) Wynna Sabella Rinel Duarte Mia Behtuk Elyse Michael Lethe Lianne Lorenzo Perrach Bianca Alis Lisebet



Arx - Ward of the Lyceum - Southport Training Center

Largesse Level


Comments and Log

Fajra arrives, following Lianne.

Calypso inclines her head to Rinel when she speaks. "It is my pleasure. I don't believe we've met before." She says as she starts making her way towards the front of the Training Center. "We'll have to rectify that." She says, staying silent for a little longer as people begin to trickle in to the very practical and martial training center. A few benches are set out, clearly indicating where the debate and discussion will take place.

Duarte has joined the Commander Seating.

Behtuk is contentedly sitting at the lowest stool in the room. Though he doesn't speak much, he does watch those who enter and when Rinell remembers his name he nods to her. "Well met scholar." He removes a hand from his pocket holding a bit of break and pops that into his mouth. He's always eating it seems.

Sir Rhys, a Valardin Knight, Laurene, a military adjutant arrive, following Alis.

Anze has been sitting next to Calypso on the benches befor she rises to speak, giving a brief nod to Rinel in return to the bow. "Lady" he says in return to the greeting.

Elizabetta, a lissome lady-in-waiting, Valor, a small brown and white corgi puppy, Lily, a lithe young woman arrive, following Sabella.

Sabella arrives, following Lorenzo.

Lethe steps inside with an eager smile on her face. She takes a look around and finds a good place to sit.

Lisebet has arrived, and is milling about somewhat idly. Her slight form is easily overlooked, but as she is greeted by name, she turns to incline her head to Rinel politely. "Well met, everyone," she greets to those already present as she looks to find a seat of her own.

Rinel bows politely to Calypso and moves away in order to avoid monopolising the hostess. The scholar stands near Wynna.

Duarte offers Rinel a bow in return as he comes in, "Scholar." He makes his way to a bench and has a seat, opting not to insert too many idle pleasantries into the proceedings, or demand much of the Duchess' attention beyond a deferential bow in passive greeting.

Freshly arrived to Arx, Prince Lorenzo is on escort with Sabella, the two of them in conversation as her ladies in waiting and dog trail behind. "I suppose in order to impress you I will need to have my own massive entorauge." the young man offers with a grin as he releases her arm to find a place to settle.

Derovai is already sprawled out on one set of benches, taking up as much space as his average frame will allow, booted feet kicked up on the bench beneath him. He offers Rinel a too-bright smile, planting his elbows on the bench behind him as he leans back to watch people filter in, blue eyes scanning the entrants. He has made absolutely zero effort to comb his hair or dress formally, but, of course, that's a rare occurrence indeed.

Alis can't quite sneak in, but she does manage to weave her way through the people gathering until she can plop herself down near Anze. If not beside, then at least behind and to the side (how else is she going to see! He can't be in front of her!). First though, she inclines her head toward Calypso and the others gathered.

Elyse steps in, perhaps a little hurried and knowing she was a bit late. A cheery grin offered to most of the room before she oves to sit - purposefully sitting as close to Derovai as possible, just so that he has someone on his bench as well. Not seeming to mind at all his booted feet - indeed, perching one of her arms on them so she has somewhere to rest it.

"Oh, they're just here to make sure I don't accidentally get married while I'm out." Sabella laughs and glances back at the ladies, who take the puppy and wait near the door. "They're really terrible at their jobs based on the last couple of days, though that's not their fault, I'm just impossible." She waves at those she knows and looks around for the best place to sit. "Tonight should be interesting and you'll get to meet lots of people."

Anze gives a friendly elbow to Alis and grins at her for a moment "pipsqueak"

Lianne arrives with her blonde-haired shadow right behind her, though the servant drifts off on her own a handful of steps into the training center, once it's plain her mistress has spotted a familiar face. As everyone gets settled in, she makes her way toward Duarte to take up a seat beside him without much of a proper greeting, though there are words low-spoken once she's settled. The nearby Derovai earns a moment of consideration, but her attention otherwise turns toward the rest of the crowd.

Lianne has joined the Commander Seating.

Elyse has joined the Commander Seating.

Alis makes a face back at Anze. "Meatball."

Sabella has joined the Commander Seating.

Calypso gives a nod towards Alis when she spots the Valardin General sitting next to her husband. As everyone seems to be settling in well enough she clasps her hands behind her back and begins to speak. "I would like to start this evening's discussion out by thank you all for taking your precious time away from your families and war preparations to join us for a bit of debate and discussion. To quote the words of House Saik, To act with out thought is slavery. Giving these topics time, thought, and consideration allows us to better understand why we do what we do and give us basis for our choices. The timing of this particular debate could not be more heavy on our minds and hearts." She pauses a moment and gives a look around. "Master Sparte regrets that he was unable to be here tonight, so in lieu of his absence I will start off the discussion by simply posing the first question. Why do we fight?"

Lethe has joined the Warrior Seating.

white-tailed eagle arrives, following Thesarin.

Michael has joined the line.

Perrach, a Thraxian Knight, arrived at the training center to also sit in on the debates. After a few passing moments of searching the man joins the seating in wait to hear the thoughts of others.

Perrach has joined the Commander Seating.

Perrach has joined the line.

Turn in line: Michael

Anze has joined the line.

Sabella gives Michael a wave from where she sits and a bright smile for stepping up into line. What a great guy, ready to discuss politics in front of a crowd!

Michael shuffles up and then realizes what line he is in when people are looking at him. Waiting for him to say something. This was not for the bar. "Why do we fight? We fight because our attempts at creating an ordered world for humanity to pursue happiness with freedom from chaos. I fight so that perhaps others will not have to. They may live their life without facing the uncertainty of a faceless and bloodthirsty enemy."

Duarte has joined the line.

white-tailed eagle arrives, following Thesarin.

3 House Riven Soldiers, 1 Greenwood Tribe Blood Warriors, white-tailed eagle, Thesarin arrive, following Mia.

Lisebet has not joined the line, staying settled where she is, and listening. Just that, as she watches how this all works, without putting her name in anywhere. For the moment, the young Farshaw lady simply watches and listens.

Drysi, a young shaman apprentice arrives, following Khanne.

Calypso nods a touch at Michael's comments. "A noble look at why one fights personally. To protect others from taking on that burden themselves. Thank you Lord Michael." She gestures for the next in line to step forward.

Turn in line: Perrach

Michael has joined the Commander Seating.

Khanne walks into the training center looking around to see who is who and where she might find a spot to blend in or mingle.

Khanne has joined the Commander Seating.

Behtuk gestures to himself with his thumb, pinky extended and talks quietly to Lethe.

Perrach listened as Michael gave his noble thoughts as it was his turn to provide a thought of his own. The knight stood up and offered, "'Cause sayin please doesn't get shit done. Talks don't subdue a threat."

Sabella has joined the line.

A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Perrach before departing.

Ven enters quietly, having a seat.

Calypso grins a little. "Certainly, sometimes our words must be backed up by action. Asking sets the conversation, action enforces it. Thank you." She says to Perrach and then nods for the next.

Turn in line: Anze

Mia stepped into the training at her usual brisk clip, the hem of her long gown kicked up about her ankles from the force of motion. She slowed only once she'd made several steps through the entry, realizing that she'd not yet seen the training center. Stopping short, dark, curious eyes travelled quickly over her surroundings, which brought a small, pursed moue to her lips.

Khanne smiles and wiggles her fingers in a wave to Calypso, then to Anze.

Sir Alren arrives, following Bianca.

Thesarin makes his way into the Training Center, several paces behind Mia. Per usual, the man looks like an overdressed shav from out of the woods, sword resting comfortably at his hip, looking around at the assembled. A short nod to Calypso, without calling too much attention to himself, and he glances over the others assembled, giving a few short nods to people he knows.

Bianca was not long behind Thesarin and Mia, pausing shortly to assess who was already present. Like the pair in front of her she also dipped a nod to Calypso before heading to find a seat. Oh look, a Khanne! Thattaway she went.

Bianca has joined the Commander Seating.

Anze rolls his eyes at Michaels response to the question before watching Perrach's without comment visible or otherwise. After Perrach speaks Anze speaks up then "family is the reason people fight. Speaking about concepts like ordered world from hummanity and all this is pointless. No one runs a sword through someones chest because they feel like its some moral statement. Using a blade is a practical application, and fighting is a practical thing. I fight because my job is to kill for my family. Malvici exists because throughout its line people have killed to make sure they exist, and so thats what we do. Its not a game, its not some fairytale, its not a joke as much as plenty of lazy nobles will wear a sword like they wear a hat, killing and fighting is a way to achieve goals and keep your family from being torn apart by others just as willing to kill."

Alis has joined the line.

Derovai has joined the line.

Lianne has joined the line.

Mia has joined the Commander Seating.

Calypso gives a nod to Thesarin and Khanne as Anze formulates his debate response. Another dip of her head is given towards Bianca then as well. And as Anze speaks up she gives him her full attention again. "Keeping ones family safe is certainly one of the more prominent driving forces in why we fight. With out protection of our own lines, they would cease to exist. I think the point that weapons worn as accessories are offensive to the way of the warrior is a good one to make as well. War is not a game and it certainly isn't a fashion statement." She gives a nod of thanks to Anze and then looks to the line once more.

Turn in line: Duarte

Ah! A familiar face -- or rather, a familiar head of hair, at least. That vibrant color did make the Lady Khanne a bit hard to miss. Picking her way through the assembled crowd, she found her way to the seating and stopped there to address a few words to the Halfshav woman.

Duarte stands and bows, "Thank you, Duchess." And then for those present, he introduces himself before getting to the topic, "Count Duarte Amadeo... I would not venture to assume a concurrence of rationale between every /leader/ who ever called for war. But I should say among the combatants and citizenry the reasons seem to be: 1. A belief that such is necessary to improve their way of life, or 2. A belief that such is necessary for the protection of their way of life, or even life itself." He sits.

Calypso nods to Duarte. "My please, Cound Duarte. And indeed that is an excellent point. Self preservation or the preservation of ones way of life is a very likely cause, at the root, to why we fight."

Turn in line: Sabella

"Hello, everyone!" Sabella says cheerfully, standing when it is her turn and giving the room a bright smile, "I am Princess Sabella Grayson, for the few who may not yet know me. With respect to those who have more experience with war on the frontline, I can only offer a more general thought that we fight because there is a hard balance to be maintained between war and peace, Dream and Nightmare. We fight when words fail to keep the peace. Words can be as powerful as swords and can come at far less of a cost. Someone has mentioned that please doesn't do much, but it can turn the tide of a situation that is escalating, to ask rather than command. We fight as we can for the future that we want for ourselves, our families, and those that will come after us. We fight because we hope to leave this world better than we found it. We fight because we have hope."

"Very well said, Your Highness," came a murmur from Mia near the Commander's seating.

Calypso inclines her head to Sabella. "Thank you, your highness. Indeed Princess Sabella brings up a good point here that often Diplomacy can turn the tides of war. Preemptively, and even as a time of surrender comes to hand. Balance, lowering the cost of war by preventing it. And indeed having hope is always a source of willpower and willingness to fight and defend rather than to give up." She nods her thanks and then looks to the line once more.

Turn in line: Alis

Alis stands next, giving the others a thoughtful nod for their responses response. "From my view, wars are fought from a fealty level for two reasons. To gain something, or to prevent the loss of something. And typically, both sides are represented in any given conflict. In the past, it has been about land, or religion, or even the concept of freedom. Individual warriors, soldiers, and knights may fight for varied reasons. Like family, or income, or honor. And I don't think it my place to assume or cast aspersion on any of those reasons." she decides, clearing her throat. "But for me, Princess Alis Valardin, I fight so that others may not have to. So my children do not have to worry about the evils of Pirates or experience a Siege. I fight so that the innocent have someone to protect them and stand for them. Because the moment you have taken a life, the moment you order others to do the same, the moment that someone dies because of your command, you lose something. You lose a kind of naivety and innocence that nothing can bring back to you no matter how hard you wish it. And so, some of us fight to make sure others never have to experience that. Never have to lose that piece of themselves."

A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Perrach before departing.

Lisebet has joined the line.

Calypso gestures to Alis. "The preservation of innocence is a noble goal. Fighting so that those we protect don't have to worry about taking a life the way that we do. I think that is an interesting take to it. If we fight hard enough, will those we protect never see war? An interesting thought to consider. An end to the cycle would indeed be a very precious thing I don't see happening, unfortunately." She says sincerely and then looks to the next in line.

Turn in line: Derovai

Rinel has joined the line.

Elyse has joined the line.

Khanne smiles as she listens to Alis speak, nodding her head a little to some of her words while giving a more grim expression with that same nod at others.

Derovai's voice is crisp and clear, and he doesn't bother with an introduction. "I think we should draw a distinction between fighting and killing." He nods at Anze, to indicate his earlier comment. "I'm not saying that we should balk at the latter, only that fighting -- struggling -- is something wholly different from having the power over life and death and choosing to take it or not take it. I know if I spar, and generally get knocked to the ground in two seconds flat, I'm fighting for my own cause, to, ah, not embarrass myself, or to try not to embarrass myself. But if I'm fighting to kill someone or to save my own life, and I hope to the Gods I never will be, then there's a different rationale there, obviously. I wouldn't fight to improve my life at another's expense, either, so I don't buy that as a reason. Let's be clear on how we use 'fight' here -- not for frivolous purposes, but for very serious ones with very real consequences no matter the net result, as Her Highness Alis says."

Thesarin stands at the square, listening as people talk, occasionally nodding along. He crosses his arms, keeping silent, not moving toward the line.

"Why are you sparring if not to get better at killing?" Anze asks back towards Derovai.

"Perhaps to get better at not being killed?," Mia chimed in with her counter.

Calypso clasps her hands behind her back as Anze asks his question to Derovai. It seems she has no problem with this discussion digging a little deeper rather than moving the line immediately.

Wynna grunts softly. "I'd agree with that, Countess."

"Spar with me and find out," Derovai retorts to Anze after saying something towards the benches he's at. "Pick the time and place." He shoots an apologetic smile to Calypso for the diversion, offering Mia a shrug. She might be right, or she might not be. There's no immediate indication which.

Alis retakes her seat, lips twisting slightly as she acknowledges the unfortunate truth in Calypso's words. "Sadly, I believe you are right." But still. Derovai earns a wry smile with his remarks, a look given to Anze at his question and then back at the other with a raised eyebrow for his reply. "Masochism, then." she ventures, joking. Obviously.

Lianne calls, "Evasion," when Derovai opts to answer the question with a challenge.

Calypso looks a little disappointing at the retort but nods then to Mia and Wynna. "Defense is an excellent skill to maintain." She comments before nodding to the next in line.

Turn in line: Lianne

Anze snorts at the response "coward." He says back to Derovai "I thought this was a discussion about why we fight, and you can't even respond to a simple question? I wouldn't spar with someone like you." He looks his head over towards Mia then "and in this case I believe I mispoke. Defense is valid as well, the question was the implication of what is the point of sparring if not to get better in some way with the act involved in the taking of life, either defending from it or being better at it."

Ah, but there will be no answer it seems. Prompted to say her piece, Lianne gets to her feet to speak without any introduction. "Some fine points brought to bear already. Family, land, way of life. To guard or to gain. All of it true enough." She pauses just a moment, shoulders square and head held high. "It's all driven by emotion. Fear. Of loss and of pain. Fear of what might happen to our families." She nods toward Anze. "Fear that we might lose our way of life." A nod to Duarte. "Anger over loss. Pride." Acknowledgement is turned toward Derovai, though her lips purse for a second. "Righteousness about our own claims. Our points of view." She tips a hand in a shallow gesture as she moves on. "All the rest is dressing. Land and ideology. In the end, we are driven by our emotions. To ignore those motivations is to ignore our humanity."

Derovai checked composure at difficulty 7, rolling 1 higher.

Derovai laughs aloud at Alis' words, a single sharp bark of laughter. Lianne, at their set of benches, gets a quieter reply. Or at least the start of one, before he clutches his black-clad chest at Anze's comment. "Do you really think so?" But he stays seated, not rising to the bait any further, content to let the debate progress and pass the proverbial baton to Lianne.

Khanne listens to Lianne and bobs her head in a slow nod. "Emotion is the root of it, no matter what the reason, I think. It is our emotional response that drives us to act."

Calypso grins a little at Lianne's points. "An uncomfortable view for some to take. The thought that our actions are driven by emotion rather than logic and rules. Anger may press someone to act much sooner than an order will, and certainly with more vigor."

Turn in line: Lisebet

Lisebet eventually puts her name in to have a chance to speak, though it's a thoughtful move on her part. "I am Lady Lisebet Farshaw," she says clearly, her voice carrying well enough. "And I am one of those who does not fight, at least not with weapons and brawn. But as mentioned, diplomacy, persuasion, these are also methods of fighting, if you will. I think personally, I work to keep things from escalating into a fight, where I can. So, in some ways, I think we fight when other methods fail for whatever reason. When we are not articulate enough, convincing enough, good enough negotiators to keep everyone pleased with what they have. Or to move resources from here to there, fairly and justly. This is a mouthful but to sum up, I believe we fight when resources are believed to be unfairly apportioned." She nods to Lianne with a smile. "And this often goes in tandem with high emotions on one or many sides. It is often that we see fights as having only two sides, but there are many times more. Those who fight, those who observe and do nothing, and those who antagonize." She nods her head once, finished speaking now.

Wilhelm the Iron Messenger, 3 Iron Guardsmen arrive, following Sparte.

Calypso nods to Lisebet. "Indeed, the cause of conflict often has many sources. Seeking to understand a conflict and why another might see that conflict as having been started in the first place could be a key to dissolving it. The thought that a fight is the result of a failure to properly use our communication methods though is an interesting one. An added pressure to our diplomats perhaps." She says with added thought and then nods to the next in line.

Turn in line: Rinel

Lianne takes on a rather thoughtful expression as Lisebet gets deeper into her point, brows pitching upward when the speaker's attention turns her way for that short moment. When Lady Farshaw is done, the marquessa nods and murmurs something to those around her.

Rinel folds her hands in front of her as she thinks. She is quiet a moment before speaking. "It seems that to this point, the arguments have generally been divided between two camps. There are those who believe that motivation is intrinsic--that we are driven by emotion, or survival instinct--and there are those who believe that our motivations are extrinsic--that we battle in order to fulfill some duty to others. It occurs to me that this mirrors--if you will pardon the turn of phrase--certain differences in theology among the populace. There are those who are interested in embracing their emotional aspects, and there are those who believe that certain emotions must be subjugated, not embraced, in order to follow the commandments of the Gods. I find myself favoring this latter view. Any creature that walks upon this world will do what it can in order to survive, or protect its brood. Any group of shav'arani will do what it can to protect itself. But we are a Compact, elevated in the eyes of the Gods, because we have sworn oaths in front of the Gods and humankind. It are these oaths that make us civilised--and I would propose that it is these oaths that we should recognise as our motivation for fighting. We are different from animals and Abandoned, because a Valardin lady will lay down her life for a Velenosan--not because she loves the noble, or considers him family--but because she has sworn to do so."

Duarte has left the Commander Seating.

Orland leaves, following Duarte.

Ardoin has joined the Commander Seating.

Thesarin has joined the Warrior Seating.

"And yet we fight among ourselves" Anze counters back to Rinel "houses minor to great have warred within the compact with a great deal of regularity over the compacts history."

"Probably because they disagreed with their reason for fighting." Elyse offers, her voice carrying a cheerful tone, a little grin on her lips as she offers it up. "Disagreement is not always settled peacefully, after all."

"Our failure to maintain the standard the Gods have set for us is no reason not to strive to reach it, my lord," Rinel responds with equanimity.

Calypso gestures to Rinel. "An interesting point to take, we fight because we have sworn to do so. In that we fight us against those who oppose us, but what about..." She says just as Anze speaks up and makes the point she was about to. "We do have a very long history of in-fighting. It does point to a different understanding of conflict than that of upholding oaths." She gestures to Elyse. "You will be the last on this topic before we pose another question, go ahead."

Turn in line: Elyse

Elyse stands up and offers the room a bow. "Elyse, Lieutenant of the Valorous Few. With a likely less than noble reason, and one that might not spark agreement in everyone. Silver. Which makes sense, given my profession. But it's also what got me out of mucking stables or tending a farm that I felt wasn't the right fit for me. I enjoy the adventure more than fighting, but it's a necessity that comes with the job, as it were. Can't be a sellsword, get paid and then not fight, when it comes to it. Unavoidable circumstance. Not to lessen the oaths one take to fight, or the call to arms to defend, or the veneration of the Gods - not at all. But it is, beyond what has been mentioned, another reason some find reason to fight." offering a grin to the room before she sits back down.

The line has been dismissed by Calypso.

Sparte has shown up late, looking to have come he straight after work. He glances around the Training Center, smiling a bit at the sight of so many people in attendance. He finds a spot near the entrance to sit and observe and try to stay out of the way.

Perrach folds his arms while listening to the answers offered at the first inquiry. As hushed conversations continue in the seats he waits to hear the near question posed for the audience.

Lianne calls out to Elyse, "I'd argue that's not far from other pleas about surivival or emotional drives. To eat. To drink." There's a flutter of her fingers to signify a whole list of things one can do with coin.

Derovai follows up Lianne's comment with, "Drinking was my first answer, anyway, Marquessa, but I decided not to say it," with a conspiratorial grin towards her.

"Fair, but you can be uninvolved emotionally, and flush with coin. But if you're getting paid to do the job, do it you will - least you want to break your contract and find yourself with no work in the future." Elyse offers in return, though it's shared to someone at the same bench she's sitting at. "I don't /need/ to go fight to earn earn silvers, but it's certainly something I have the skill to do decently."

Calypso nods to Elyse. "Indeed, some fight for silver. Though it may be said that to some degree or another we all fight for silver. Resources in one degree or another have been mentioned quite a lot." She says with a nod and then clasps her hands behind her back.

Calypso poses the next debate topic with a heightened sense of seriousness in her tone. "We have discussed why we fight, all excellent answers. I would now like to discuss justified killing. When do we take a life justly? When is it unjust?"

Lianne answers Derovai with an easy smile. "Then we are on the same page, Master Voss. It all comes down to our baser drives." Nevermind the impish glint in her eyes which might bring into question how much she supports her own argument. Elyse's aswer is met with a gracious nod, no further argument brought when that last point is made.

Wynna has joined the line.

Wynna considers this question thoughtfully, pursing her lips. "Just or unjust is rather dependent on the law, is it not? Unless we discuss now an all-encompassing sort of justness, in which case I would say that one does not kill unless the other has drawn blood first - unjustly, of course. And even then, one must take into account the circumstances. I do not believe death should be withheld from those who are too dangerous to their fellows to be left alive."

Turn in line: Wynna

Thesarin has joined the line.

Derovai has joined the line.

Calypso inclines her head to Wynna. "Indeed. And take the words Justice, Just, Unjust to mean whichever sense of the word sparks a thought or debate in your own mind." She says to the rest before looking back to Wynna. "The belief that there are some who are just far too dangerous to alive is an interesting one. Change and redemption can happen in many, but can it happen in everyone?" She asks with a raise of her brow and then gestures to Thesarin.

Turn in line: Thesarin

a tiny man with a BIG unpronounceable name arrives, delivering a message to Bianca before departing.

a tiny man with a BIG unpronounceable name arrives, delivering a message to Wynna before departing.

"Might be missing the question," Thesarin says with a slow shrug of his shoulders. "But if we're talking of war... how much can it matter?" He pauses, looking thoughtful a moment, and shaking his head. "I've been fighting wars more'n twenty years, now. Put plenty of folk in the mud. Can't talk, most of 'em, if they deserved it. Since they were trying to kill me and mine, can't much say I care a shit."

Perrach has joined the line.

Calypso nods to Thesarin. "Perhaps the question in your perspective could be taken from the point of the difference between killing in war and that of killing elsewhere." She pauses a moment. "I suppose I should give my personal thoughts on the topic as well. I believe that war is justified when both sides come to the battle prepared to fight. War, and killing, are unjustified when there are raids and skirmishes in the night. When there are innocents slaughtered with no warning. To me, those losses were unjustified. One must be conscious of what they are stepping in to." She nods then and gestures for the next in line to step forward.

Turn in line: Derovai

"With all due respect to Officer Fatchforth and anyone else that might disagree with me with reason, who cares about the law? That's not what matters. What matters is killing with reason. If I kill a man because he calls me a coward -- " Derovai shoots only the quickest look at Anze there, " -- then I have no reason for it. If I kill a man because he's about to kill me, that's a reason that I can stand behind and justify to my conscience, to the Sentinel, to whatever you want to justify it to. I don't favor change. I favor constancy. Sorry to any disciples of Lagoma hanging around here. And my reasons if I ever have to kill anyone won't change. I'm not a big fan of situational ethics. And... I guess Thesarin isn't either." A faint smile, only slightly dry. "Raids and skirmishes have their place, depending on when and where and why. Killing innocents doesn't. No matter who they are or where they're from."

Bianca has left the Commander Seating.

Sir Alren leaves, following Bianca.

Lorenzo has joined the Commander Seating.

There was a faint frown that touched Mia's face for a moment, the mirth she'd been wearing a moment ago fading quickly. Frozen for a moment, she appeared to be holding her breath to see how her husband would react to something that was said.

Behtuk takes a hunk of bread out of his pocket and tears it into smaller pieces to eat.

Sparte clears his throat, lifting a hand. "Can I respond since I was called out by name there?"

Calypso nods a touch to Derovai. "Having a strong moral line to judge against when it comes to what is and isn't justified is a good idea." She gestures to Sparte. "By all means, this is discussion more than it is presentation."

Derovai waves a gloved hand towards Sparte, in a clear 'go for it' motion, regardless of not actually being the debate-runner.

Anze seems unphased by the breif glance towards him, instead responding to Derovai with "I normally try to disagree with Calypso as little as possible, but in this situation I do. I think that raids and skirmishes are extrmely important, fighting a war going for fairness is a terrific way to lose a war, my question to the speaker would be, who is the one who is deciding whos innocent? I would imagine that is something that could be quite different based on perspective." Anze says before looking towards Sparte and his response to the speaker.

Talyan, a frazzled apprentice arrives, following Saya.

Lianne, who's fallen quiet as she listens to those around her and to the ongoing debate, smiles rather directly at Anze's point about perspective and innocene, a look turned to Derovai to see if he has any reply.

Calypso smirks at Anze for the beginning portion of his comments. "I suppose that is the gray area. Who decides who is innocent and who is not." She comments to the side but turns her attention back to Sparte for his reply.

Perrah rises quietly from his seat to head for the exit as the discussion continued on the theories of fighting.

Perrach has left the Commander Seating.

Sparte nods to Calypso, looking around the training center. "The Iron Guard are not the magistrates, nor the inquisition. The laws were not made for us to enforce them, we're just more plentiful than the people fixated on the law. We're a peacekeeping force and a standing army. The fact we patrol and uphold civility in Arx is a testament to the passion of the Iron Guard for seeing the city excel." Sparte starts to drift further into the room as he speaks. "Everyone who joins the Iron Guard knows they may be one day called to take a life in the name of the Crown, Gild, the Sentinel, or Gloria. It is not something to be reveled in, not something to be sought out. It is not something we do for the sake of joy or pleasure. It is something we do out of love for our Arx, for our city and country. There will be guardsmen who disagree with me." A shrug of one shoulder. "And that is fine. The ones who agree with me will know it. I don't carry a sword for civil disturbances anymore in part because of this. I never want to take an innocent life because of a careless hand while subduing someone. I will not hesitate to draw steel when the safety of Arx or the people of this city are at stake."

Michael has left the Commander Seating.

Talyan, a frazzled apprentice leaves, following Saya.

Alis has joined the line.

Derovai has joined the line.

Calypso inclines her head to Sparte at his words. "An insightful look at a practical application of this sentiment. It seems to come down to the judgment call of the individual in the moment weather or not the bearing of steel is necessary in any given moment." And as she sees Alis stand up to the line she gestures for her to speak.

"Well met Lady Tyde." Behtuk says, standing by rote when the noble lady moves to leave.

"I suppose it might sound like a simple answer. But, I feel that taking a life is justified when you have no other recourse. When the enemy you are engaging with will not let up, and will not surrender or flee. It may not even be their fault that they don't, or can't, surrender. But if it is your life or theirs, then you protect your own life with everything you've got. Up to and including killing." A gesture is made from Alis, to those gathered. "Many of us here have fought in a battle where the enemy was under the influence of another. And when that influence was dispatched, we lay down our arms because to have killed when the enemy was obviously confused and uncertain and did not continue to attack us... that would have been unjust. But, that is killing as a part of war. When it comes to killing as a matter of crime and justice, well, I imagine that chasing a fugitive results in much the same calculation. At least, it sounds like it based on the words of Master Sparte."

Lethe has left the Warrior Seating.

Thesarin has left the Warrior Seating.

Thesarin has joined the Commander Seating.

Alis has joined the Commander Seating.

Calypso nods to Alis. "Calculation and consideration for the circumstances seems to be the conclusion to this particular topic. Determining when is and is not just and unjust to kill." She gestures to Derovai. "You will be our last commentator on this topic. No pressure." She grins a touch and stands aside to hear Derovai's words.

Turn in line: Alis

Turn in line: Derovai

The line has been dismissed by Calypso.

Derovai remarks to Calypso evenly, "Clever alliteration, Duchess-General. But then you and I agree there's no cowardice in raids and skirmishes," Derovai replies to Anze. "Whoever you are. And I suppose you still won't spar with me. As far as who decides who's innocent? Don't look at me. I'm nobody's judge. But I do wonder, Officer Fatchforth, why you assume civil disturbances are any more peaceful than external ones. From what I've seen inside the city and out -- same motives, same reasons, same justifications, same lack of justifications. We're no greater just because we are inside city walls. We just count ourselves as civilized. But, as Her Highness says, same calculation applies. Let's not be proud of ourselves unnecessarily."

Behtuk sits back down. While he hasn't said anything to the gathering, he has been listening, and asking one or two questions of those seated with him. He frowns for the very first time at Derovai's words.

Anze juat rolls hia eyes in response to Derovai's jabs

Calypso gestures to Devorai. "Thank you for your comments. I think a good debate topic might come from what it means to be civilized." She looks to Sparte then. "Should you intend to hold another series again." And then she addresses the group as a whole. "Please feel free to stay and mingle and discuss these topics for as long as you like, but the moderated portion of this debate will be coming to a close. Thank you all for joining us and sharing your thoughts, experiences and the opinions and revelations that have brought."

Sparte looks over to Derovai. "I don't. I've been cut, beaten, and stabbed keeping the peace."

Lisebet stays silent on the topic of killing, letting the others speak, and listening as they do so. Her gaze moves from person to person, with a polite interest showing on her face.

Miella, a dark-haired shop apprentice, 1 Malvici Guards arrive, following Mirari.

Sabella has left the Commander Seating.

Elizabetta, a lissome lady-in-waiting, Valor, a small brown and white corgi puppy, Lily, a lithe young woman leave, following Sabella.

Rinel moves towards Khanne. "My lady," she murmurs, bowing politely. "What did you think of the debate?"

Elyse slips to her feet, having been sort of staring off into the air. Listening, nodding here and there, but otherwise not adding much to the conversation. A pause when she spots Mirari, flashing her a smile, before she heads out, slipping away from all the conversation behind.

Behtuk has been given some food for thought, at least enough that he gets to his feet and meanders toward the exit.

Derovai nods at Sparte. "Then why don't you carry a sword here, although you might elsewhere? Why trust in the virtues here when you have every evidence that they can't just be subdued, to use your term? That's either stupid or foolish. You know I mean no offense by that -- you've spoken to me enough times -- but it's illogical at best, and masochistic, to use another's words, at worst. As far as what it means to be civilized? Simple answer. Be nothing like me. I've been called 'uncivilized' at least half a dozen times since I've been back. Or 'uncivil' anyway, though if my scholarly friends are correct -- " he gazes at Rinel and Wynna, " -- the words likely have two different meanings."

Elyse has left the Commander Seating.

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