Written By Ailith
Sept. 11, 2019, 8:17 a.m.(10/23/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
I like the practicality of your advice. Thank you.
Written By Preston
Sept. 6, 2019, 4:13 a.m.(10/13/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
If a merchant is reliant upon excommunicated coin, given how few there are I would suggest maybe he might wish to revisit his business idea.
And again, I emphasise that what I said were my views and those of my background. As others point out, we cannot speak for the Crown and would not speak for the Crown. There is the law of the Gods that applies everywhere, there is the law of the Church will applies in our holy places and governs the business of the Faith and those who work for us, there is Arvani law which applies to all the compact. The Faith gave up its rights over exile long ago to the Crown, and we would not seek them back. But it does not change the seriousness to us of this sanction.
I also must emphasise, as I said before, you can sustain the excommunicated. That is your choice. We all have them. There is only an actual problem where that might drift into sustaining his ideas. My point was however that if you sustain such a person without pushing them to repentance, or sustain them and otherwise bring suspicion that you do not condemn their views, that those of the Faith are free to consider if you are truly a friend of the Faith, and that actually if you are not pushing them to repentance you may be helping them feel confident to remain outside of the Faith and so further harming them by allowing them not to repent.
As for your question on actions, I thought I was clear on this but I'll say it again too, the excommunicated can make no oaths, can give no confidence to others. You, however, made your oaths to obey the Compact, it's rules, it's laws, to obey the instructions of the Gods. His actions do not free you from those obligations, you did not make them to him. And the same is true for others. The only way someone can be placed outside of the protection of the Compact, and so vulnerable in the way you suggest to random killing, is through the powers of the King and those he delegates to - though you would still have obedience to the law of the Gods in that situation. If you had sworn to Limerance not to harm them, or if you had provided Guest Right under Gild? Then you would be bound by that, the King cannot release you from those obligations, only the Gods through the Dominus.
And again, I emphasise that what I said were my views and those of my background. As others point out, we cannot speak for the Crown and would not speak for the Crown. There is the law of the Gods that applies everywhere, there is the law of the Church will applies in our holy places and governs the business of the Faith and those who work for us, there is Arvani law which applies to all the compact. The Faith gave up its rights over exile long ago to the Crown, and we would not seek them back. But it does not change the seriousness to us of this sanction.
I also must emphasise, as I said before, you can sustain the excommunicated. That is your choice. We all have them. There is only an actual problem where that might drift into sustaining his ideas. My point was however that if you sustain such a person without pushing them to repentance, or sustain them and otherwise bring suspicion that you do not condemn their views, that those of the Faith are free to consider if you are truly a friend of the Faith, and that actually if you are not pushing them to repentance you may be helping them feel confident to remain outside of the Faith and so further harming them by allowing them not to repent.
As for your question on actions, I thought I was clear on this but I'll say it again too, the excommunicated can make no oaths, can give no confidence to others. You, however, made your oaths to obey the Compact, it's rules, it's laws, to obey the instructions of the Gods. His actions do not free you from those obligations, you did not make them to him. And the same is true for others. The only way someone can be placed outside of the protection of the Compact, and so vulnerable in the way you suggest to random killing, is through the powers of the King and those he delegates to - though you would still have obedience to the law of the Gods in that situation. If you had sworn to Limerance not to harm them, or if you had provided Guest Right under Gild? Then you would be bound by that, the King cannot release you from those obligations, only the Gods through the Dominus.
Written By Marian
Sept. 6, 2019, 2:29 a.m.(10/13/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Excommunication is not a weapon wielded by the Faith to force an action. It's a last resort, a recognition of heresy that is dangerous to those Faithful. I don't see any ulterior motives in the Godsworn by rejecting rhetoric that could damage our beliefs.
Nor is there any connection between those Abandoned, choosing to live outside the Compact and a heretic that rejects the teachings of the Faith. Rejecting sovereignty does not mean one is faithless just as rejecting Faith does not make one outlaw. Can a poor fool fall so off the path to do both, I imagine it's possible. Certainly not advisable under any circumstances.
Don't blur the lines here by suggesting excommunication makes it permissible to commit murder. Regardless of the decisions of a heretic, citizens of Arx can not commit murder without consequences. This decision by the Faith does not invite harm on this heretic. There is no glory in lashing out at the mentally ill. I would only bear arms against a heretic if the lives of citizens of this Compact were in danger.
There are consequences to rejecting sovereignty. Just as there are consequences in heresy. Both paths can circle back to redemption, one in bending on knee to rejoin the Compact as the other requires repentance to the Church. Both circumstances allow for choices. I do not pity others for their choices taken freely. Or criticize others for enforcing consquences.
Nor is there any connection between those Abandoned, choosing to live outside the Compact and a heretic that rejects the teachings of the Faith. Rejecting sovereignty does not mean one is faithless just as rejecting Faith does not make one outlaw. Can a poor fool fall so off the path to do both, I imagine it's possible. Certainly not advisable under any circumstances.
Don't blur the lines here by suggesting excommunication makes it permissible to commit murder. Regardless of the decisions of a heretic, citizens of Arx can not commit murder without consequences. This decision by the Faith does not invite harm on this heretic. There is no glory in lashing out at the mentally ill. I would only bear arms against a heretic if the lives of citizens of this Compact were in danger.
There are consequences to rejecting sovereignty. Just as there are consequences in heresy. Both paths can circle back to redemption, one in bending on knee to rejoin the Compact as the other requires repentance to the Church. Both circumstances allow for choices. I do not pity others for their choices taken freely. Or criticize others for enforcing consquences.
Written By Bliss
Aug. 11, 2019, 2:27 p.m.(8/18/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
I never said otherwise, Prima, but without a Compact I am quite skeptical that humanity would have won any of them. Our victories certainly did not come from abandoning civilization.
Written By Thesarin
Aug. 8, 2019, 9:46 p.m.(8/13/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
It is a hell of a thing, killing folk.
Take away all they got, all they would've had.
Take away all they got, all they would've had.
Written By Alecstazi
July 10, 2019, 11:33 a.m.(6/9/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
While this has been a fantastic exercise in learning methods for debating with a brick wall, I have been told who and what you are. You are a hypocrite. A hypocrite who cannot handle the truth of her own actions and deeds, and so you scream at the world about the things that you hate trying to assuage your guilt or hide the fact that you are the monster you claim to hate. That you are no better than those you so enjoy shouting at. So your words? Meaningless. You know what you did. And you will have to live with that knowledge for the rest of your life.
Written By Alecstazi
July 9, 2019, 11:24 a.m.(6/7/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
There is no need to defend your courage to me, I have never belittled your contributions to the defense of the Compact. My words spoke to your statements of loathing butchery when you work as a sellsword for one of the most brutal mercenary groups in Arvum. And you clearly are attempting to make us a better people, hence the lecturing and hectoring and excoriating that you do within the pages of these journals. And that is fair and fine, we are all entitled to our opinions and we are charged by Vellichor to share such things.
Why would I ignore what I asked for? You are not a martyr, do stop painting yourself as one.
When raiders attack us, yes, they should be killed. And I believe you must stop killing when they are all dead, yes? I do not know what stories you have heard, but I can tell you from my personal experience, that if we are responding to a raid, we are not simply going to lay waste to the first people we find. If the raiders take the time to frame another group for their wrong doing... why place the blame on us? Do they not deserve the scorn for setting up these so-called innocents? Why is the burden on the victim? You say yourself that those who were framed are not inclined to explain the situation, because they hate us. So I ask... what justice is in this? Are you saying that those who attack us should simply go unpunished because they might have been framed or are unwilling to defend themselves?
They *are* on our land. If you have an issue with this, you can take it up with the King. That is well above my level of decision making, thank you very much. And yes, if a tribe does the right thing and rejoin the Compact they *do* get to stay where they were. And their work is exchanged for protection, assurances that they will not starve, that they will have access to education and medical care and all of the other things that come with being a citizen of the Compact.
The Nox'alfar, Jadairal, Cardia and Eurus are all governed by bodies that can and do engage in diplomacy and trade. Abandoned tribes are, by definition, criminals and trade with them is strictly forbidden by our laws. There is also no government to speak of, if they wish to join the Compact I know countless Houses looking for more serfs, soldiers or vassals. We do negotiate with tribes that make efforts to join the Compact and bend the knee. Your comparison of how we treat with Cardia and Abandoned is nonsense at best, and at worst, being deliberately obtuse. See above, regarding Cardia being a united kingdom with a governmental body that can be dealt with, with diplomacy. There is no such Abandoned body.
Again, you speak as though your opinion were fact. You say that it is not that we follow laws, but rather that the Abandoned have no power -- again, a patently false statement. The Abandoned outnumber the Compact by a factor of ten or more. They are entirely dangerous to us by sheer numbers alone. Fragmented as they are, and thank the gods for it, no. They could not destroy the Compact. But because they are fractious, rebellious and generally unwilling to submit to law and order, we do, by our willingness to work together, manage to stay strong.
Yes. If you were born Abandoned, you were born a criminal. Welcome to the laws of the land. If you have issue with it, there are several magistrates and of course the King available to speak to about them.
I did ask for ideas and suggestions, because if you cannot offer them, then what is the point? You say we're doing it all wrong but until there are viable options, how can there be a change? I wouldn't call the Undying Empire or Cardia enemies? I do not know of any Abandoned that have joined either as allies, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. As to ensuring their hatred of us... perhaps they ought to stop raiding us and rethink their positions as criminals. Stop breaking the law, rejoin civilization, honor the gods and there will be no need for conflict. You paint them all as victims, when they are the ones who break laws and attack *us*.
Please tell me you yell at them too?
Why would I ignore what I asked for? You are not a martyr, do stop painting yourself as one.
When raiders attack us, yes, they should be killed. And I believe you must stop killing when they are all dead, yes? I do not know what stories you have heard, but I can tell you from my personal experience, that if we are responding to a raid, we are not simply going to lay waste to the first people we find. If the raiders take the time to frame another group for their wrong doing... why place the blame on us? Do they not deserve the scorn for setting up these so-called innocents? Why is the burden on the victim? You say yourself that those who were framed are not inclined to explain the situation, because they hate us. So I ask... what justice is in this? Are you saying that those who attack us should simply go unpunished because they might have been framed or are unwilling to defend themselves?
They *are* on our land. If you have an issue with this, you can take it up with the King. That is well above my level of decision making, thank you very much. And yes, if a tribe does the right thing and rejoin the Compact they *do* get to stay where they were. And their work is exchanged for protection, assurances that they will not starve, that they will have access to education and medical care and all of the other things that come with being a citizen of the Compact.
The Nox'alfar, Jadairal, Cardia and Eurus are all governed by bodies that can and do engage in diplomacy and trade. Abandoned tribes are, by definition, criminals and trade with them is strictly forbidden by our laws. There is also no government to speak of, if they wish to join the Compact I know countless Houses looking for more serfs, soldiers or vassals. We do negotiate with tribes that make efforts to join the Compact and bend the knee. Your comparison of how we treat with Cardia and Abandoned is nonsense at best, and at worst, being deliberately obtuse. See above, regarding Cardia being a united kingdom with a governmental body that can be dealt with, with diplomacy. There is no such Abandoned body.
Again, you speak as though your opinion were fact. You say that it is not that we follow laws, but rather that the Abandoned have no power -- again, a patently false statement. The Abandoned outnumber the Compact by a factor of ten or more. They are entirely dangerous to us by sheer numbers alone. Fragmented as they are, and thank the gods for it, no. They could not destroy the Compact. But because they are fractious, rebellious and generally unwilling to submit to law and order, we do, by our willingness to work together, manage to stay strong.
Yes. If you were born Abandoned, you were born a criminal. Welcome to the laws of the land. If you have issue with it, there are several magistrates and of course the King available to speak to about them.
I did ask for ideas and suggestions, because if you cannot offer them, then what is the point? You say we're doing it all wrong but until there are viable options, how can there be a change? I wouldn't call the Undying Empire or Cardia enemies? I do not know of any Abandoned that have joined either as allies, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. As to ensuring their hatred of us... perhaps they ought to stop raiding us and rethink their positions as criminals. Stop breaking the law, rejoin civilization, honor the gods and there will be no need for conflict. You paint them all as victims, when they are the ones who break laws and attack *us*.
Please tell me you yell at them too?
Written By Alecstazi
July 8, 2019, 12:49 p.m.(6/5/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Perhaps it is that we simply have different definitions of butchery. Be that as it may, my point is simply this:
You seem deeply conflicted. You proclaim loudly to have certain morals, yet your actions and voluntary associations paint a different story. You are so quick to decry and denounce the Compact that you claim to be a citizen of, saying that you seek to make us a better people. What would you have us do then, Prima Shard of Nefer'khat? What is your suggestion as to how to deal with the Abandoned who refuse our laws and squat on our lands? Would you have us turn away from flagrant law-breaking? Should we attempt to round them up and ship them elsewhere? What is the solution that you deem more appropriate? I am not asking this to be argumentative, but in a sincere attempt to understand your point of view. And maybe a little bit to be argumentative. I admit it. I like debate.
But in all sincerity, I *do* want to know what your suggestions are. What do you propose we are to do in order to maintain the laws of the land?
You seem deeply conflicted. You proclaim loudly to have certain morals, yet your actions and voluntary associations paint a different story. You are so quick to decry and denounce the Compact that you claim to be a citizen of, saying that you seek to make us a better people. What would you have us do then, Prima Shard of Nefer'khat? What is your suggestion as to how to deal with the Abandoned who refuse our laws and squat on our lands? Would you have us turn away from flagrant law-breaking? Should we attempt to round them up and ship them elsewhere? What is the solution that you deem more appropriate? I am not asking this to be argumentative, but in a sincere attempt to understand your point of view. And maybe a little bit to be argumentative. I admit it. I like debate.
But in all sincerity, I *do* want to know what your suggestions are. What do you propose we are to do in order to maintain the laws of the land?
Written By Thesarin
July 7, 2019, 11:42 p.m.(6/4/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
That the Compact holds one Abandoned people the same as the next, oftener than not, ain't escaped the knowing of raiders, neither.
That a clever bastard could ride home with spoils while the Compact took their vengeance on whatever tribe was closest. Take all they could carry and let their enemies suffer for it.
That a clever bastard could ride home with spoils while the Compact took their vengeance on whatever tribe was closest. Take all they could carry and let their enemies suffer for it.
Written By Alecstazi
July 7, 2019, 1:09 p.m.(6/4/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
You hate butchers... And yet you willingly served under Audric de Lire? To be clear, I never met the man personally, but the stories...
Written By Alecstazi
July 6, 2019, 5 p.m.(6/2/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
I have noted a propensity on your part to hold up your personal experiences and speak as they were not only the most common but the only truth. When in fact, MOST Abandoned peoples do not bear identifying marks such as facial tattoos or disfiguring scars. What makes the threat of them so insidious is that if they dress as members of the Compact they are virtually indistinguishable from legitimate commoners. They speak Arvani same as we do, they look like us, but they are not us. They do not honor our laws, they steal from us, they start on our lands and keep us from them. They steal and poach and murder us. They are the enemy. You frequently seen to forget that YOU are ostensibly a citizen of the Compact. A surprising thing, given how much disdain and contempt you regularly seem to hold it in. If you hate us so much, no one is stopping you from returning to your savage people... Or are you the sort that just wants to complain about things even while you enjoy the benefits and safety that are the results of the very things you most about?
Written By Alecstazi
June 21, 2019, 9:54 a.m.(4/27/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
I can appreciate your passion in this topic, though I believe that in that passion you have missed several salient points.
First, when you say that we should till our own land, and hunt our own forests, to that I ask, what land? Perhaps you have not had the pleasure of visiting our beautiful Isles, but I can tell you that what land we have is not prone to being effective farm land. Our forests are fewer. Unless you can convince the Compact to cede some prime arable land along the coast, the fact of the matter is that there is not enough land to feed our people.
We do not have kidnappers. We have warriors that do precisely what Mainlanders do. They roam outward to seek new resources. Where on the mainland the choice is much more often simply death, we do not waste life so recklessly.
You say that you would choose death. That it's your choice. Thralls made a different one.
First, when you say that we should till our own land, and hunt our own forests, to that I ask, what land? Perhaps you have not had the pleasure of visiting our beautiful Isles, but I can tell you that what land we have is not prone to being effective farm land. Our forests are fewer. Unless you can convince the Compact to cede some prime arable land along the coast, the fact of the matter is that there is not enough land to feed our people.
We do not have kidnappers. We have warriors that do precisely what Mainlanders do. They roam outward to seek new resources. Where on the mainland the choice is much more often simply death, we do not waste life so recklessly.
You say that you would choose death. That it's your choice. Thralls made a different one.
Written By Alecstazi
June 20, 2019, 3:49 p.m.(4/26/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
So I suppose what you are saying is that it is preferable in your mind to have hundreds or thousands of people starve because we cannot afford to import crops and supplies we need. And that need is based off not having enough arable land to farm, or forests to hunt in. You'd rather that criminals be maimed or mutilated or outright murdered instead of paying the community back through labor and service. All of those Abandoned tribes you mention -- you would rather them all be put to the sword, their lives wasted, ended, their blood left to soak into the land.
It is a curious thing, this mainlander belief that their way is somehow more humane. You are advocating for the death by starvation of swaths of innocents. For the rampant murder of criminals.
Now who is the monster?
It is a curious thing, this mainlander belief that their way is somehow more humane. You are advocating for the death by starvation of swaths of innocents. For the rampant murder of criminals.
Now who is the monster?
Written By Ahmar
June 7, 2019, 9:57 a.m.(3/27/1011 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
But if one can save both. Or there is only the one to save. And the people are too weak to even move. How can you just let them burn and suffer? You don't agree with them, sure. Want them to face justice for their actions? Sure. Letting someone suffer is not justice. It is human cruelty at it's finest.
Written By Thesarin
April 14, 2019, 11:54 p.m.(12/5/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
And what would a woman want on her birth-day, who's got more than she'd ask for already?
Written By Reigna
March 21, 2019, 1:56 p.m.(10/12/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
When tragedy and lawlessness descend and mere words are the response, I understand that it feels like you are unseen, unheard, unloved. My writing here that I wept bitter tears into Kael's chest at the news of what happened in our lands does nothing to ease that, I am aware. There is a deep, penetrating hurt that has struck my people -- and they were *my* people. They were citizens of Oakhaven. They had sworn oaths of Fealty to Kael and to the Compact under the auspices of Limerance. They were Compact. Lashing out in rage and anger only leads to more violence, no matter how much a heart might crave vengeance, a good leader, a good citizen seeks justice. And justice takes time. And talking.
It does little to blunt the pain of that loss. Of the outrage done. One of the hardest things in being noble is in putting aside personal appeasement, personal pride and focusing on the logical, pragmatic and long-term good. Revenge is satisfying in the moment, but only breaks further the bonds of civilization that hold us together as a society. Justice will see those murdered avenged in a lawful, legal and honorable fashion.
There will be justice.
It does little to blunt the pain of that loss. Of the outrage done. One of the hardest things in being noble is in putting aside personal appeasement, personal pride and focusing on the logical, pragmatic and long-term good. Revenge is satisfying in the moment, but only breaks further the bonds of civilization that hold us together as a society. Justice will see those murdered avenged in a lawful, legal and honorable fashion.
There will be justice.
Written By Valdemar
March 14, 2019, 9:38 a.m.(9/25/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Actually, you are wrong. I don't care what your answers to my questions are. I don't care what any individual thinks the answers to my questions are.
I was trying to point out that there is likely to be a cost in blood for this vision, a price that will overwhelmingly be paid by Mourning Islanders who have never broken any other law. By Mourning Islanders who have kept their oaths so far, and who have fought and bled for the Compact the same as people from any other fealty. Not cultists, not servants of some foreign power. Now if you believe that cost to be worth it, that is a different argument that I am not going to have here, as that question has already been decided. Sometimes the cost must be paid.
However, attitudes like yours, if held by too many, will make this harder than it needs to be when those who survive must continue to live in the Compact. Refusing to respect the price that has to be paid will draw out the fighting and make it worse, further damaging the unity that I hear so many touting. So think what you want, but if unity is really that important to you, perhaps consider your words a little more carefully.
I was trying to point out that there is likely to be a cost in blood for this vision, a price that will overwhelmingly be paid by Mourning Islanders who have never broken any other law. By Mourning Islanders who have kept their oaths so far, and who have fought and bled for the Compact the same as people from any other fealty. Not cultists, not servants of some foreign power. Now if you believe that cost to be worth it, that is a different argument that I am not going to have here, as that question has already been decided. Sometimes the cost must be paid.
However, attitudes like yours, if held by too many, will make this harder than it needs to be when those who survive must continue to live in the Compact. Refusing to respect the price that has to be paid will draw out the fighting and make it worse, further damaging the unity that I hear so many touting. So think what you want, but if unity is really that important to you, perhaps consider your words a little more carefully.
Written By Gilroy
Feb. 21, 2019, 10:25 a.m.(8/12/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Of course the idea of sacrificing Brass to stave off an invading force is a shocking idea. Probably even moreso for you, as mercenaries are known for their sweet and tender hearts.
After all, the heroic Metallics would never have sacrificed someone to benefit themselves or their people.
And the Compact itself has never sacrificed people for the greater good.
So I suppose you're right. There's no precedent for this sort of thing.
I'm sorry I even suggested it.
Completely unrelated, what was it Brass was planning to do with the king's kid again? I never did understand that. I feel like the Cardian said something and Brass didn't deny it, but I certainly can't remember what it was. Maybe to buy him a nice rocking horse? Kids love rocking horses.
After all, the heroic Metallics would never have sacrificed someone to benefit themselves or their people.
And the Compact itself has never sacrificed people for the greater good.
So I suppose you're right. There's no precedent for this sort of thing.
I'm sorry I even suggested it.
Completely unrelated, what was it Brass was planning to do with the king's kid again? I never did understand that. I feel like the Cardian said something and Brass didn't deny it, but I certainly can't remember what it was. Maybe to buy him a nice rocking horse? Kids love rocking horses.
Written By Rymarr
Feb. 21, 2019, 9:58 a.m.(8/12/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Sir Jak Whitemane has some explaining to do. He insisted for the longest time that I should trust in my equipment (so long as I paid it proper respect and maintained it well).
Thanks to an educational journal entry provided by Shard, today I've learned that I'm supposed to avoid the enemy's weaponry in the midst of combat. No more arrows in the back or need for a shield, Gloria!Why try to take OMEGA's charge when one could literally just meander to the right? This has truly opened a plethora of paths (likely to the left or right) before me.
Look out, world! Rymarr's learned the importance of sidestepping!
Thanks to an educational journal entry provided by Shard, today I've learned that I'm supposed to avoid the enemy's weaponry in the midst of combat. No more arrows in the back or need for a shield, Gloria!Why try to take OMEGA's charge when one could literally just meander to the right? This has truly opened a plethora of paths (likely to the left or right) before me.
Look out, world! Rymarr's learned the importance of sidestepping!
Written By Ajax
Feb. 21, 2019, 4:16 a.m.(8/11/1010 AR)
Relationship Note on Shard
Prima Shard,
I don't actually think you have much to worry about on that front. The possibility of you changing in a short term is very slim to none. The only people who are likely to use it against you are the very same that would even if you were just a Prodigal. In the very least even among the more independent Sell-swords you have a decent enough reputation that some would come to your aid alongside your horde of friends.
You'll get through this. While I sometimes think you're a headache and you give me the urge to bash my head against the wall I do think you're one impressive force of nature when I take a few steps back and watch you go at it with someone else. So, I suppose, I'll root for you.
I don't actually think you have much to worry about on that front. The possibility of you changing in a short term is very slim to none. The only people who are likely to use it against you are the very same that would even if you were just a Prodigal. In the very least even among the more independent Sell-swords you have a decent enough reputation that some would come to your aid alongside your horde of friends.
You'll get through this. While I sometimes think you're a headache and you give me the urge to bash my head against the wall I do think you're one impressive force of nature when I take a few steps back and watch you go at it with someone else. So, I suppose, I'll root for you.
Please note that the scholars may take some time preparing your journal for others to read.